1- Can you tell us about your job in a few words?

I am a professor at ESCP Business School where I teach branding and design, and lead seminars on materialistic culture and consumption. I am also a consultant in brand strategy and work alongside firms of all sizes in many different sectors on the question of brand identity and how it is declined in various forms (including visual identity, packaging and digital writing).

2- For our annual meeting, you spoke about the subject “Bulk or pack? : The return of History in a post-consumerist society”.

• What are your thoughts on Fair Packaging for the future?

In my opinion, the notion of fair packaging refers to the notions of fairness and justice. Fairness is about choosing materials and logistical circuits that make sense, depending on the impact of packaging throughout the product cycle and not on the consumer’s perception. This means that fairness has to be related to a speech about truth that is both objective and measurable beyond the loads of rubbish on sustainability or carbon impact. In this respect, scientific intervention and regulations seem to be essential to establish fair packaging beyond mere democratic emotions and social discourse. Packaging suffers from an emphasis on its seductive aspect and its communicative impact, which are too often glorified at the expense of ergonomics, usefulness and function. Citizen’ information must take over representations, imaginations and marketing doxa. But fairness also refers to laws and what we believe is right. I personally believe in our ability to invent virtuous packaging that are good for us and respectful of the environment. We will thus have to get rid of frills, unnecessary attributes and give up absurd practices that consume materials and energy (deposits outside a regional area, over-packaging of cosmetics and toothpaste, etc.). This also means that we need to rethink our anthropological conception of packaging. After all, packaging is a link between product and customer, a relationship that is not only material and emotional but also cognitive and symbolic. It is the articulation of these different facets that we must rethink today. Marketers have been defending the idea that in most cases we symbolically consume the package and not the product. It will take courage and perseverance to deconstruct this belief. For a long time, packaging was conceived as a silent seller; now we need to think of it as a righteous one.

Fairness lies between legality and goodness. It is the concept of a virtuous consumption.

• Bulk goods : is it a CSR regulation for brands or is it just a return to the past?

Bulk packaging remains a complete marginal practice. It represents less than 1% of the total consumption of consumer goods. However, it is a reoccurring theme in social discourse, which aims at removing the guilt of capitalism that destroys our resources. I don’t believe we can go back to the fantasy world that precedes the appearance of packaging. Nor do I believe in the CSR speeches delivered by companies that are not capable of the efficiency nor the virtue of their commitments. We should avoid exaggerating the Tesla effect with bulk. Everyone knows perfectly well that driving an electric car does not change the issue of energy transition. But this ideology allows us to remove the guilt from people we are afraid to ask to consume less. The weight of regulations and taxation is a determining factor in changing the practices of manufacturers and consumers, even if it depends on a certain amount of courage that our leaders lack. Sustainability is only the illusion that allows everyone to consume frantically which is not sustainable in the long run. Jean Marc Jancovici said: our fight against climate change will require “blood, sweat and tears”. Only political courage will help us consume differently. The only way to avoid pollution is to produce less and more efficiently. I have never heard of a company that has built its strategic plan on a sustainable and voluntary decrease in production. Producing something better can only exist if we produce less, even if the very idea of decreasing the productions obviously does not suit any of the market stakeholders. Bulk will only develop in markets where it really makes sense, and this only concerns a few categories of products with very specific characteristics. Bulk is a total illusion because it creates transaction costs that are too high for the consumer and excessive logistics costs for the manufacturer and the supplier.

3- According to you, what social issues related to packaging could the CNE cover in 2022-2023?

Allow me to speak frankly – basic flattery is not my forte – I am astonished by the amount of information, analysis and intelligence that the CNE has provided. The technical and thorough knowledge of this organization is truly impressive. As someone who is always looking for something useful, I think I have found the grail! If I were to recommend a few modest research directions or further analysis, I would focus on the following themes:

– Understanding the beliefs and the psychological obstacles related to the different materials. How are these beliefs around materials formed and distorted? Why do we now despise plastics when they were glorified in the 1960s? etc.

– An in-depth analysis of the cognitive biases that affect our material and packaging preferences;

– Comparative analyses of bulk weight and different packaging materials in different countries and product categories. Can we really develop bulk outside certain food categories? What is the weight of culture on accepting bulk goods?

– Trade-off analyses to better comprehend the weight of what makes a packaging (material, shape, design, brand, etc.) in the acceptability of the product and the price;

– An analysis of the most effective fiscal and legal strategies to guide the way packaging is done by manufacturers and how consumers choose it;

– Prospective studies based on design fiction to understand what is possible in the packaging sector;

– What role can schools play in educating future consumers about fair packaging?